Kayla: Welcome back to the Designer Practice Podcast, and I'm your host Kayla Das.
If you're anything like me, you're intrigued by various personality tests and frameworks and the insight that these frameworks provide.
Personally, I find personality frameworks validating and in fact, the Enneagram is one framework that opened my eyes that I'm meant to be a business owner.
But how can we incorporate such frameworks into our psychotherapy practice with clients?
While in today's episode, Dr. Tamra Sattler, Marriage and Family Therapist and clinical supervisor explains how to use the Enneagram in your psychotherapy practice.
Hi Tamra, welcome to the show. I'm so glad to have you here today.
Tamra: Thank you, Kayla. This is one of my favorite subjects.
Kayla: Mine too. I absolutely love it. But before we get lost in the Enneagram, please tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from, and tell us a little bit about you and your own practice journey.
Tamra: Okay. So, I run a private practice in Boulder. I'm also a professor at Naropa, Boulder, Colorado. And I got my master's in counseling psychology, my PhD, East-West Psychology. And I am a type four on the Enneagram, and we'll get into that, nine types.
It has been the most transformative tool and map that I have ever gotten a hold of, and I'm constantly talking about it at retreats, dinner parties, wherever I can, my therapy office, and. The map is so rich and so deep and there's still opportunities to add to it.
Kayla: I love that. So, for any listener who doesn't know what the Enneagram is, what is it and how is it typically used, say, outside of therapy? What is the framework about?
Tamra: So basically, in short, it's a psychospiritual map for awakening, which means. We're identified and conditioned through our childhoods and life and our own genetics. And then this map can help you wake up to your deepest self, aka divine, and to undo your conditioning and your patterns so that you can see clearly. Which could mean nirvana or being awake. And it just allows for more peace. More joy. More calm. And I think we could use that in our culture today.
So, it's probably about 3,000 years old. They don't know exactly where it came from. Had origins in Egypt. A spiritual group called the Saruman Brotherhood. Then it landed with Gurdjieff. Then it went to South America with Oscar Achazo and Naranjo. Then it came to the U. S. with some psychologists: Helen Palmer, Russ Hudson is the transmission holder of today. He offers a lot of programs. I was in business with Russ. And it is just a thorough map of being a human in reality.
Kayla: I love that breakdown and I know you mentioned that you're an Enneagram 4 and I'm an Enneagram 3 and of course we're going to actually talk about just a brief overview on what each type is. But I think that that's really important because we're going to obviously use ourselves as a little bit of examples throughout today's episode. So, can you please provide a brief overview of each Enneagram type?
Tamra: So, there are so many different ways to describe these, so I thought I would start with vice and virtue. So, kind of the conditioning that you start from and then where you go.
So, type one, seen as the person in the movie theater who wants everyone's phone off. So, they go from anger to serenity. That's the full journey.
Type twos, the one who's busily taking care of everyone's needs. They go from pride to humility.
Type three. You. Success oriented, productive, image based. From self-deceit to veracity.
Type four. Me. Typically, kind of the drama queen, the damsel in distress. From envy to equanimity.
Type five, the kind of knowledge sort of information seeker, a lot of engineers. Averus to non-attachment.
Type six, the doubtful person, the person who COVID, you know kind of created a lot of fear to courage.
Type seven, the people in Boulder who are off to the ski hill every weekend, adventures. Gluttony to sobriety.
Type eight, kind of think like mob boss or think justice oriented. Lust to innocence.
Type nine, think of that favorite person in every group, the one who gets along with everyone, the mediator. From sloth to right action.
So that gives you kind of the full scope, but again, how do we see clearly through our own conditioning.
Kayla: That's amazing. So, when considering incorporating the Enneagram and therapy sessions, are there any considerations or caveats that should be considered?
Tamra: Yes, there are. So, the whole deal with the Enneagram, it became kind of like a typing kind of game, or I know what you are at cocktail parties. And I want to get away from that. Let's see behind your typing. Let's see beyond the box. So, I will, just because I'm an Enneagram geek, I will have everyone take a questionnaire. If they find it free, great. Truity, eclectic energies, Enneagram Institute.
If they're really geeking out, I like them to do the, I think it's $12 for the full. Enneagram typing and subtypes, which we can get into if we have time, self pres, sexual and social, very important for each of the nine.
I like to always start off with it. I have it on my website and for couples. can't do without it. And for type fours, which is the people that I've treated borderline style personality can't do without it because it allows for any diagnosis to be held with a little bit more lightness and playfulness. So that's how I use it.
Kayla: I agree with that. And just for my own personal experience, I personally love all types of personality quizzes. And, obviously, this is a framework, not necessarily a quiz, although there are quizzes, like you mentioned, out there.
I find them quite validating and when I've worked with various, personality frameworks in my therapy practice and in my business coaching practice, people feel validated by them. They're not usually surprised by the results, but it validates them. And, not just that, most personality frameworks like the Enneagram isn't about this is your type and you're stuck here and this is all you're ever going to have.
The Enneagram is really great at that one side to another side, right? When you're not at your best, you might be at the worst of that side. When you're at your best, you're at the better end of that side. And as a result, it shows that there is room to grow within that personality framework.
Tamra: You got it, Kayla. Exactly. Yes. What better map is there for knowing ourself and being ourself as an individual. And I'm a little more psycho spiritual, but there's nothing else. And then we get to know and be our planet and our culture, but it starts with us. We're the one that's not recycling or we're the one that's doing damage or hurting others. So, know thyself and be thyself.
Kayla: I couldn't agree more. I think it might be helpful for listeners to even using us as kind of, I guess, a case study on how our Enneagram type shows up in our lives. So, I would love for today's conversation for you to pull apart when you think of the Enneagram 3. Obviously, we don't know each other very well. Of course, we've had conversations prior to this podcast, but I would love for you to kind of identify some pieces of the three that I can validate and explain from my point of view. As well as an example of yourself and how you see the world through an Enneagram 4.
Tamra: Yeah, so of course I want your confirmation on this, but for all threes that I know, and I'm not experiencing that with you, I'm experiencing a little more, I don't feel most threes hearts. But I feel your heart. So, the heart is always protected by this professionalism or this image or this doing, doing, doing. But I can feel your heart. And also just in your podcast, everything is so well put together. You speak well. It's organized. And then I hope in your personal life that you can allow your productivity to be surrendered a little bit. What do you think about that?
Kayla: I mean, I think you're bang on and something we haven't talked about. And of course this might go beyond this particular episode, but Enneagrams also have wings, meaning that you, are either directed more towards another Enneagram type or another. And I'm actually a wing 2. So, a wing 2 is someone who is really there to help others, a lot of therapists tend to be 2s. Obviously you can be anywhere on that spectrum, but. That is my wing. So, when you say about feeling the heart into it, I think it's partially the wing. But also, the other side of it too. And I think this goes into understanding your personality type well, is that when you adopt and are validated by a specific type. It's easier to feel comfortable within that type.
So I am, and I would love to hear your input on this. I am very organized in everything I do. I'm very productive. I was the person in university who had my paper done three weeks in advance, and everyone was like, her.
But, with time, of course, knowing that that can also be the best and worst of me. I've learned to adapt and adapt to help me be my better self within my personality type. And then as a guest, you obviously noticed how organized this podcast episode up to, you know, this recording. I have prescripts, I have process, all of those, and of course, that's definitely my three shining through. 100%.
Tamra: Yeah, in my estimation, there's one development scale that I've found that I live for, and it's through Wisdom of the Enneagram, it's a book, Russ Hudson.
Nine, personality disorder on the bottom, identified condition, up to zero on the top, awake, sage, shining through. I believe you're a very developed three, because I can tell. So, if you're curious about that, it's a narrative study. Sorry, qualitative. But yeah, it's almost as if in a way you've kind of dropped, yourself image, and you're really living from your pure characteristics.
Kayla: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Now, I would love, because I know a lot of your research, and we're going to talk about your book later on as well is focused on the Enneagram 4, and of course you are a 4. So, tell us a little bit about what that looks like, and one, how it may show up for you, but specifically through your research and of course, for your book how that presents.
Tamra: Okay. So, at its worst, borderline personality disorder and borderline style. I mean, I'm talking inpatient, suicide attempts, triangulating staff, heavy, heavy drama manipulation. At its best, creative, vibrant. joyful, playful, but just to give you a little of my own flavor hot off the press.
So last night I ended a three-month relationship, which three months is not a long time, but it's a good enough amount of time. I did not shed a tear. I did not have any anger. I did not have any blaming. I talked to this man for an hour and a half, who kind of stayed with me. Shared my authenticity, which is big for a four, shared how I felt missed, but that thanked him for, you know, all that he brought to me. This morning, I didn't feel like my heart was ripped out of my chest or that I was blown out like I have in the past.
Relationships are very difficult for fours because of the key abandonment. But because I've done so much work in inhabiting myself through all kinds of ways, yoga, meditation, the Enneagram, therapy, psychedelics, you name it. I can sit here in this moment and go, okay, that was hard. I'm going to miss this relationship. So, we talked prior about equanimity, emotional equanimity, balance.
Here I am. Still have work to do. Still have work to not be the victim, to still allow my creativity, to not get caught in my authenticity. I don't have to share with everyone all my details. So this is kind of the flavor of yeah, I have a really good life and I have really good relationships. Most are not volatile; I don't have eating disorders. I'm very successful. Voila.
Kayla: Kind of going back to that framework we talked about before being kind of at your best self-versus your worst self, it sounds like you're close to the best self that you can be.
Tamra: I'm trying. When you look at the descriptions of like the top of the top, relationship has always been a struggle and personal significance. I think I've landed, you know, in doing my book. Therapist. Professor. I developed a app with another woman.
I think slowly, but surely, I've got that. That's a big four thing. And then relationships, still definitely desire a romantic life partner. I still have some work on that to be fully myself in romantic partnership. But most other things I feel pretty balanced in. So, yeah, so thank you.
Kayla: Yeah. That's good. And I encourage any listener who either hasn't heard of the Enneagram or maybe you've heard about it, but you haven't really determined which type you are, to look up and either take one of these quizzes. Or at least read through some blog articles about the Enneagram, so that you can have a better understanding on what type you are. And then continue to learn about yourself and work within that. Just because you're a certain type.
So just because I'm a three like you mentioned I may not be presenting as a typical three. Have I ever presented as a typical three? 100%. I've been at my worst and I have been quite vain as a result. But in saying that there's always ways that once we know about ourselves, we can make those changes and those movements towards the things that matter for us within our own type.
Tamra: Very well said. Yeah. And just as you're talking, Kayla, I get so excited helping people understand and be themselves. I mean, I just, there's nothing more. And for you to finally be your full self and expressing that in the world. There's nothing more.
I will always be a big advocate of this system, continue to hopefully do more groups and lectures and teaching. I'm going to try to bring it into Naropa University, which is a Buddhist psycho spiritual university. Yeah, so
Kayla: I love that. We sort of talked about this earlier, but I'm hoping that we can dive just a little bit more deeper into how can listeners use or incorporate the Enneagram into therapy? How can they practically use it with clients?
Tamra: Yes, so definitely getting educated. Wisdom of the Enneagram, probably the best book. I don't think anyone is going to feel threatened or turned off by doing a personality test, especially if you approach it lightly and playfully.
And then yes, knowing yourself is always the first place to start. And then, allowing the client to deepen into their own type and you don't have to be an expert, just guide them, point them. And then if you really want to geek out, then you can utilize, for example, type four. If I can help a type four, see that not every situation or every person has something missing, but there's fullness to each moment. Huge. So, then you learn a couple tidbits and techniques for each type.
The Enneagram still has a long way to come in techniques for the various types, but it's starting.
Kayla: That's some great tips. Tamara, you have a book for sale that incorporates some of what we discussed today. Can you tell us a little bit about your book and how it can help listeners?
Tamra: Yes, so it's called Too Much and Not Enough, Healing the Borderline Style and Enneagram 4. So, it is both a clinical piece, because I've worked with this clientele for 20 years. Memoir, because I am this client. And my own healing and journey. Then it has some very dramatic narratives on my clients and really the feeling and the desperation for a lot of these people.
And then I just think on a whole, a companion for a loved one or for this person themselves to say, Hey, you're not alone. I'm with you, we're with you, for them, so that they can heal.
Kayla: So, to check out Tamara's book, Too Much and Not Enough, check out kayladas.com/tamrasattlerbook
You can also check out Tamra at her website at tamrasattler.net,
Or you can simply scroll down to the show notes and click on the links.
Tamra, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today to discuss how to use the Enneagram in your psychotherapy practice.
Tamra: Thank you, Kayla. Appreciate this. It was really fun.
And thank you everyone for tuning in to today's episode, and I hope you join me again soon on the Designer Practice Podcast.
Until next time, bye for now.
